Post-Update Summoner Grind Discussion

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Eleiryn, Jan 11, 2017.

  1. Eleiryn

    Eleiryn QUACK QUACK BOOM Administrator

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    Overview
    So it turns out Gumi ninjad in a bunch of stuff in last night's maintenance, chief among them some pretty major ones for summoner.
    • 10/80ST now 50/400 (currently bugged THEY FIXED IT)
    • Lab no longer grants ST for using friend units
    • Element XP in maps doubled (generally 40 E-XP for most quests now, 12en seems to be 30)
    • Weapon XP massively buffed (~300-350 a quest)
    With the 80/100 lab loop gone that means maximizing quest ST farm is now crucial; the massive increase of elemental and even weapon xp per-run without much concern for cost also adds value to lower energy cost quests. I did a few runs of some meta and potentially good quests to try to find exactly what the tradeoffs may be since most of the XP lists are outdated. The below is from my notes and just tracks summoner experience (xp) and summoner training points (st) per energy (en) used; we'll discuss the element/weapon xp benefits separately since they're relatively minor imo. Also note that these are all rounded a little since I'm a lazy piece of shit, and that SP, element, and weapon xp seem to be independent of energy cost.
    • Mystical Lair - Name the Reaper (18 en / 33 xp/en, 22 st/en)
    • Subzero Road - Secret Signposts (15 en / 29 xp/en 27 st/en)
    • Raujis Lake - Rippling Waters (13 en / 28 xp/en, 31 st/en)
    • Mirage Snowfields - Glittering Snowfall (13 en / 28 xp/en, 31 st/en)
    • Castle Road - Abundant Monsters (12 en / 24 xp/en, 33 st/en, but only 30 exp a run)
    Analysis
    You can easily see that the actual XP per energy ratios don't actually change by that much; aside from Castle Road (which sucks for other reasons) you don't really lose more than about 15% xp-en by going down. However, the ST/en ratio rises significantly; comparing Name the Reaper to Waters/Snowfall is about a 41% increase in ST income. Add to that that you're going up by about 36% element XP per energy... well, it's a pretty good tradeoff. One note that isn't covered above though; how much / if at all do Mimic and Ghost spawn rates increase through map? I can't say as that I noticed a huge difference when testing today but I always had a gut feeling that higher quests in 3rd arc tended to have better spawn rates, not sure if true. That said, it's a rare enough occurrence that I don't think it actually makes a huge difference overall.

    Note that Rippling Waters and Glittering Snowfall appear to be the same - mostly because they are, lol. They're just the Left/Right path split options. Both have 4 enemies in the final room as well for easy BBspam. That said, Rippling Waters (water/light) does inflict Paralysis whereas Glittering Snowfall does not, but feels like it hits a little harder in return, and Waters also seems to die faster. If you bring immunity when farming (ex. Rugal, Health Codex/Drevas/etc spheres, etc) then it literally doesn't matter at all which you pick, if you don't then I'd probably recommend Snowfall just because there's less room for shenanigans to happen. Otherwise it should be fairly easy regardless of which you pick, I didn't notice HIGH paralysis rates and the difference in clear speed/incoming damage is pretty minor at best.

    tl;dr you can grind Glittering Snowfall or Rippling Waters instead of Name the Reaper now

    Discussion
    This particular change is especially worth noting, IMO, because Gumi actually sidestepped something an Alim bug/exploit for once. Long story short, JP had a couple weeks to use 400 ST events to loop lvl2 lab near infinitely, leading pretty much anyone who was active to have every summoner attribute maxed before map 3 hit, then instantly max the new caps with stored ST when map 3 did hit. Given that we got the 400st rework and lab no longer giving friend ST simultaneously, global ever had that window, just the vastly inferior 80/100 loop which was really only good for summoner xp.

    Add in a number of half energy (and one 0 en) events during 400st, AND the daily rotating half en/double xp/etc events in summoner mode maps, the massively belated 400st rework, and the nearly-free uber 5* units from the GE gate including buffed Zeruiah, Eva, Randolph, and Elaina, and the end result is something pretty unusual for the JP/GL experience: GL actually has it significantly harder than JP did.

    Now I'm not complaining about that, just so we're clear here. I was gonna grind the same regardless, I enjoyed summoner on JP and enjoyed it even more on GL since I actually care about my account here, lol. But I do think it's an interesting development that is pretty unusual for us, and I'm definitely curious to hear what other people think about it. While people do overblow the server difficulty difference, it's definitely true that GL tends to have content a bit easier on release (to some degree anyway - it's a complex subject), and it does mean that trying to 'git gud' at summoner is VASTLY harder on GL than JP summoner wise since you can't rely nearly as much on exploit loops and half energy 400st super grinding.

    To me personally, I actually like it - JP has had a LOT of issues with lack of content in the last 1-1.5 years that destroyed its userbase (rip AI lmao) that global partially sidestepped with exclusive content and guilds, though GL as a whole has also dropped off a fair bit in activity - but that's a discussion for another time. Point here, though, is that it lets GL players grind more - or forces them to, depending on your perspective. As a long term Disgaea player I don't mind grind at all as long as I get to watch the pretty numbers constantly go up, and Summoner definitely scratches that itch for me, but those who don't give a shit about the mode could understandably see it as bad that they have to grind more for the same result. But for me, while I may not be #1 on the server (0 gem usage definitely aint gonna beat people who were 99 in a week lmao), I can still be pretty proud of my summoner with the amount of work put into it.

    Not really trying to convince people of anything though, just sharing my experience, so I'll end this disgusting wall of verbal diarrhea here and turn it over to y'all. Happy with the new changes? Salty with the lack of 400st lab loop? Have a better grinding location that I missed, or an argument for Name the Reaper/other grinding spot I dismissed as being amazing?
     
    Last edited: Jan 16, 2017
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  2. KrisL

    KrisL Celestial God

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    I'm sad we didn't get the 400 ST summoner lab like JP did. I hope we do get some sort of time with actual 400 ST in quests (instead of just displaying 400 ST).

    Thanks for the quest recommendations. Have probably ~95 summoner friends at the moment. Going to have to do some math to determine my best path to get the most ST with my energy bar + least amount of gems while not letting any friends go to waste per reset. That all assumes we do get actual 400 ST at some point.
     
  3. Mulch

    Mulch

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    Slightly salty. The biggest downside is that it puts a giant hurdle in front of the vast majority of my friends list who have only dabbled in summoner mode.

    So I'll have to prune a few friends for better summoner helpers, really devote st to leveling elements, and use crystals for weapons.
     
  4. Scrubbius Maximus

    Scrubbius Maximus Slumber God

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    The update unfortunately ruins my loop =(

    I was happily doing the summoner lab on auto for the past week or so and some levels...

    But the update is very welcomed though; imo with up to 400ST per friend, grinding in SM isnt going to be that bad because the lab provides a very fast and auto-friendly way of controlling your grind.
     
  5. Eleiryn

    Eleiryn QUACK QUACK BOOM Administrator

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    Yeah, I barely hit 80 before the loop got removed, going from 120k+ xp a day to like 18k is gonna be harsh haha.

    I've been trying to get my FL not cancer when it comes to summoner, finally getting to be happy with it but there's still a decent chunk of useless summoners to contend with. RIP. Thank god for the ingame friend finder though, first time I've used it in FOREVER, getting a suite of 70-80+ friends is so much easier that way.
     
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  6. Chaos1011

    Chaos1011 Cycle Cutter

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    i for 1 am very glad this means i'll be capping my dark and thunder elements that much quicker & with everything else i can use experience tonics in lab to speed up the process there so yea. the only real loss is that you can't grind exp near infinitely anymore which tbh is a good thing a game is more enjoyable when you can't cheese everything
     
  7. mturf

    mturf Athena

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    im very very happy we didnt get the uber exploitable 400lab loop.
    i wont deny i checked it asap tho :rofl:
    the overwhelming lack of foresight and ridiculously lackluster "fix" royally fucked it for them.
    its so damn blatant they didnt give a shy tit about the bugger, too "distracted".
    leaving such exploits there and not taking action forces players into a catch 32.
    the ones that want it easy/etc will exploit the oppounity to fuuq.
    if left, and enough do it before adressing the simple ass issue, the company basically condones it and thus will be over a barrel if they evr rebalance.
    new content would need to take into account the astronomical advantage these users have.
    therefore the ones who would like to play as intended hit the 32, either join the exploit farm, or be royally fuqd by future content.
    also leaving anyone coming in late no chance in hell.
    global have categorically dodged a bullet.
    it does mean tho that potential future jp content imports may need nerfing or converting to optional side quests to give players a new target to climb to gradually.
    400loop is flat out game breakin.

    80/100 i personally didnt like that much, but it was not quite ott op.
    less like robbing a bank and more like having a crafty accountant.
    at the most i may hav sank a few hundred energy an maybe an hour or two into it, and that was on sp rather thn xp.

    current setup suits me grand since it works, and doesnt lead to a ludicrous time sink into either farming st or using it.

    -----

    i too am v happy that gumi have stepped up to the plate in terms of content generation and such.
    i wont say im glad jp is in the shit, but at least theyre happy working on their new project(s?).
    gums seem to be doing a pretty decent job too, heres hopin they can continue to improve tings.
     
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  8. Beyond Z

    Beyond Z Almighty

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    I wasn't even aware that Alim made such a colossal exploitable loop.:eek:
    I also wasn't even aware that the summoner lab would lose the ST gains from friends. If I'd had know I'd have grinned the lab a little more.:p

    But alas, I was too occupied with regular mode.:D To counter Alim's s-arc exploit loop, I guess we at Global had a week long Super Karma loop for regular arc!:rofl:
    Speaking of: Post-Update Regular Mode grinding has been made more efficient thanks to the ability to disable SBB cut-ins and also filter options can be applied for genders now too so you can further separate the Zerus from the weaker % Zelnites!:lol: (doesn't help if some wastards have non EXP SP option Zerus up tho, or worse: Faelan, Felice etc.:mad:)
     
  9. TheSaiguy

    TheSaiguy Deva

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    I've only dabbled in summoner mode right now, so much so I don't even know how to get lv2 lab stuff, so I was never aware of that exploit.
    Basically, salt level is low. I do think I would like to start doing that though.
    Edit: Salt content is high now. Trying to do a mission is Summoner mode is crashing my game and wont let me get it back up.
     
    Last edited: Jan 12, 2017
  10. Lil_Dreåm

    Lil_Dreåm Moros

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    Are people angry they didnt get to use a bug in the game instead of playing it fair and square ?

    B-but Jp ha..... get out !
     
  11. mturf

    mturf Athena

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    just realuzed its 22.
    lul.
    ah but my posts do bad speaky so much theyll only realyz if i mentions it miselfs. :D
     
  12. Scrubbius Maximus

    Scrubbius Maximus Slumber God

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    Managed to get 3 elements up to lv40 already thanks to the additional ST given. I look forward to the time where Elgifs are available in our units for SM
     
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  13. Pulsate

    Pulsate Athena

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    Thanks @Eleiryn now I know I can farm an easier quest than name the reaper :D was too hard to macro with random friends since my summoner level/element level and weapons arent very high level but those 2 new farming locations seem easy to macro with whatever friend the game picks :D
     
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  14. Sslink24

    Sslink24 Thanatos

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    Actually in love with SM now! Just started monday got to lvl 26, finished all the maps with exception to the Ex dungeons in Vin. Got all the weapons to lvl 15 except the pistols and got light and thunder to lvl 20. Feeling pretty damn good! When does the 400St end? Love this type of grinding, reminds me of Old FF games

    Edit: just got my Lupine Mantle, Mono thunder ftw, Rued, Pamela and Thunder summoners!
     
    Last edited: Jan 14, 2017
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  15. MrSako

    MrSako Radiant Saint

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    My two cents:

    Save the experience pots to use in summoner lab. Note it does not double elemental XP. I like using it for SP. With 15k ST stored, use a pot and run Parameter boost lvl 2 40-50 times by fast forwarding. You get 5.5-6k SP. Max out your parameters and store the rest. You will need ~80k SP to max them again once the update and new skills come in.

    Crystals can be used to level up weapons and farming Start of Adventure during +80 is viable.

    I think you get more stat boosts from maxing a weapon than levels, but I have not seen a chart that lists stats as compared to level of summoner.
     
  16. Sharpshooter

    Sharpshooter Archangel

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    That's 300k ea crystal tho. You can easily spend 100 mil trying to level up your weapon
     
  17. MrSako

    MrSako Radiant Saint

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    You are absolutely right. You can choose to convert your Zel to merits or use for evolution if it suits your fancy. I will use it for weapons. And check out that staff once it comes out for global...
     

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