Returning player - at sea with units!

Discussion in 'Units & Squads' started by Khanwulf, Jan 9, 2018.

  1. Khanwulf

    Khanwulf

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    Ok, I know when I'm in the woods. Would appreciate the advice.

    Have returned recently from about a year and a half absence, and I'm trying to understand if - after blowing my tickets and gems on the resummon gate - I have anything decent to work on. Could really use the advice on squad builds and character development foci for a decent shot at GGC/hard content, and even Arena performance! (OTOH, if any of these are utter wastes of space, I'd be thankful to know that too!)

    Here is current roster through 4*:
    OMNI:
    Mankai Sakura Miku (white)
    FIRE: 7* - Ardent Dawn Avant, Crimson Fist Glenn, Ardent Monk Rengaku, 6* - , 5* - Scorching Alpha , Burning Pike Claire , Lava Beast Vermilion, 4* - Stahn
    WATER:
    7*: Nereides Jewel Averus, Azure Princess Mariela, Calamity Demon Amu Yunos, Frigid Blade Asto, 6* - , 5* - Ice Warrior Karl, 4* - Disciple Belfura
    EARTH: 7*: Wild Edge Serge, Jade Commander Gyras, Alliance Leader Freed, Enchanted Armor Barvars, 6* - Maestro Goddess Miku, Valiant Edge Quaid, Jade Shimmer Libera, 5* - Thorned Tora, Gale Piercing Dion, Earth Blade Duran (breaker), Earth Blade Duran (oracle), Pure Lady Cyan, Regal Sword Dolk, 4* - Hawkeye Lario
    LIGHTNING:
    7* - Tartarus Sacrifice Radia, Tech Armor Beiorg, 6* - Holy Thunder Eze, 5* - Bolt Axe Mahalu, Bolt Singe Pamela, 4* - Thunder Whip Orna
    Light:
    7* - Dharma Seal Reihard, Tech Craze Iona, Archangel Aurelia, False Demon Lauda, 6* - , 5* - Heavenly Lance Nadore, Heavenly Lance Nadore (oracle), Egg Hunter Carrol, White Dragon Folg
    DARK:
    7* - Grand Malediction Yuura, Noble Links Johan, Judgement Demon Zalvard, Toy Soldier Haido, Wicked Sorcerer Gregor, Hexed Parasite Velma, 6* - Death Idol Kikuri, 5* - Dark Snake Kafka, Ryujin Mifune, Grahdens, 4* - Black Magress, Yuri

    Much appreciate any insight you can provide!
    Oh, and for the upcoming Unit of Choice? Which would you suggest?

    --Khanwulf
     
  2. Khanwulf

    Khanwulf

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    Addendum:
    Picking through, myself, it looks like Johan is the only serious mitigator that I have, short of building up Magress. Everyone else mitigates only on UBB.
    Added Cleria, Azalea, Kitsu. I see Cleria flagged to lead other multipurpose hard-content teams, so building her seems likely, though am unsure if there may be a better option. Since Johan doesn't heal, Cleria may be a useful partner.

    --Khanwulf
     
  3. Acyl

    Acyl

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    The reason why Cleria's used for boss fight squad lead is because lead skill (LS) gives 20% damage reduction/mitigation after 5k damage is suffered. Generally you want the effect on own lead, or friend lead. Only one copy is needed, though, because you can't stack two. Ideally one unit LS is 20% dmg reduction after X happens, what X is varies, but it is the same effect in practice. The second (own or friend) LS is 10 to 15% damage reduction that's always on, no activation required. You can stack the 10 to 15% version with the 20%, you see. You can also stack two 10-15% versions, of course, for whatever reason.

    Cleria, Mariela, are your reliable damage reduction leads. Cleria is broadly better, I'd raise her first, but I'd recommend also raising Mariela for a) backup second squad, some content needs multiple squads, and b) alternatives.

    Beiorg can also do 20% dmg reduction on lead, but activation is different. You'd raise Beiorg as well anyway, though, for different reasons... mainly he does 80% chance of KO resistance on UBB. 80% chance units don't die when killed, instead heal to full. Buff sticks around when cast, doesn't expire with turns, only expires when triggered. Buff cannot be wiped by bosses unlike other effects. Zalvard also carries the same effect, and I'd say go ahead and raise Zalvard as well... Zalvard's a good arena/colo unit anyway.

    You'd also raise Johan for 50% dmg reduction (mitigation) on BB/SBB, stacking with the Cleria/Mariela LS, but you knew that. Raise Magress as well so you have a second unit for that; Magress becomes a mitigator at Omni. Again, you want more than one working build.

    Your units that evolve to Omni are as follows. Other listed units top out at lower evo:

    Sakura Miku
    Avant, Glenn, Rengaku, Claire
    Mariela, Amu Yunos, Asto, Belfura
    Serge, Gyras, Freed, Barvars, Quaid, Libera, Dion
    Beiorg, Eze
    Ionia, Lauda, Carrol
    Yuura, Johan, Zalvard, Haido (needs Christmas mats), Gregor, Velma, Kikuri, Kafka, Mifune, Magress

    Honourable mention to Pamela, tho. She doesn't go to Omni, but an unevolved Pamela is useful for Summoner Mode which initially locks you to 5* max evo units. This is because even 5* Pamela is pretty good compared to other 5* forms of units.

    SUGGESTED MAIN SQUAD
    :thunder:Cleria, :dark:Johan, :thunder:Beiorg, :light:Ionia (or Claire/Eze), (last slot depends)

    - Cleria lead for hard boss fights, maybe Ionia lead for easier content
    - SP Johan for two turn duration on 50% dmg reduction, SP Beiorg for def relative to atk, SP Ionia for spark dmg buff and atk debuff
    - alternatively bring Claire/Eze in Ionia slot, but Ionia preferred due to being able to handle debuff role as well
    - ideally also sphere Ionia for ailment inflict if needed vs bosses, or bring Velma/Kikuri/Kafka, see below
    - last slot, bring Mariela SP for crit null if need crit null vs bosses. Otherwise maybe ailment inflict if Ionia isn't set up for it, again if needed by bosses. If no specific requirement, consider bringing crit buffer (Avant, Glenn, Mariela, Gregor, Zalvard, Miku, etc), damage unit like Yuura, or whatever

    FRONTIER HUNTER/CRIT
    :fire:Avant (Lead) + :earth:Quaid, :light:Lauda, :thunder:Eze, (choice of 1x unit)

    - SP Quaid for light/dark and crit rate, SP Avant for crit dmg.
    - if no crit rate SP on Quaid, bring crit buffer like Gregor, Glenn, Zalvard, Miku, etc. in last slot
    OR :dark:Gregor (Lead) + :earth:Quaid, :light:Lauda, :thunder:Eze, (choice of 1x unit)

    ARENA/COLO
    Regular arena, colo atk: :fire:Glenn (Lead) + (see units below)
    Colo def:
    Maybe Zalvard lead or something
    - arena/colo squad members: Glenn (SP KO resistance or lead skill), Asto (esp. with SP for KO resistance), Zalvard, maybe Beiorg

    UNIT OF CHOICE
    - UoC for this round is only older legacy units, not newer releases
    - I'd say choose a healer/mitigator, e.g. Elimo or Krantz as you are low on healing and mitigation units - only 2x of these each, whereas some content takes 3x teams, meaning need 3x healers/mitigators. Could also consider taking just a healer - Lunaris, Rinon, etc or just a mitigator - Shera, Adel, Edea
    - alternatively choose Shida, because Shida has a universal 10% dmg reduction LS, which you currently lack, and is generally speaking extremely versatile as a unit.
     
  4. Khanwulf

    Khanwulf

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    Many thanks @Acyl!
    I burned through a set of tickets yesterday late in a further (failed) attempt at Persenet. Might any of these additional units alter your analysis? UoC comments?
    Malef, Phoenix (twice, sigh)
    Melord, Hugh, Arsom
    Hisui, Mariletta
    Zora, Marlo
    Izuna

    Now Hisui is obviously a mitigator, so yay! I don't see much in the way of new healing. And Izuna is apparently a Colo favorite (Marlo looks best for that as well?).
    The rest of the picture looks vague.

    Thanks!
    --Khanwulf
     
  5. Acyl

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    Malef is elements + BB fill when squad is damaged, or ailment inflict + BB fill when squad damaged, depending on how he is set up. Quaid is better if all you need is element add (needs less SP). Probably other ailment units you have (and you have a lot) are better for pure ailment role as well. Likely you don't need a dedicated BB fill when squad is damaged slot if Cleria/Johan are in squad.

    Melord's very versatile but you may not need him particularly in main squad, since while diverse a lot of his core stuff is handled by others in squad. BB fill when squad damaged, def relative to other stat, can do ailment removal, can do stat buffs. But you have all that from, say, Cleria/Johan/Beiorg as a trio. Melord does do crit rate, but you have other crit buffers (Gregor, Zalvard, Miku, etc). May be useful for alt builds.

    Hugh is spark dmg buff + BB fill when squad sparks. Useful, this is a basic requirement, but you have sparks fill gauge from Cleria, and a lot of spark dmg buffers. Could be used in backup second build tho (everyone needs sparks fill gauge).

    Izuna is spark dmg buff as well, no gauge fill, but fully evolved at Omni is not bad for arena/colo purposes (due to KO resistance).

    Arsom doesn't have spark dmg buff and sparks fill gauge by default, though he can be SP'd to do that. He has a dmg reduction/mitigation lead, similar to Cleria/Hisui but more offensive. Good regular raid (not guild raid, though I guess you could use him in GR) lead, your best lead for raid probably. Has some rare debuffs like elemental weakness vuln which can be situationally useful (e.g. water squad in guild raid).

    Hisui is a mitigator, yes. Combines stat buff and stat stack in that slot also (you currently use Beiorg for this). Also has lead skill like Cleria (and Arsom, Beiorg) for dmg reduction. Raise him, but may not make primary squad - overlaps with Cleria/Beiorg more than Johan does. Also Hisui is squishy compared to most modern units, lacks self HP boost in SP enhancements. However you do lack a unit for crit null... Hisui lead skill has crit null, so this helps you in some boss fights.

    Mariletta's alright, BB fill when squad is damaged, heal over time, sort of a support grab-bag, but not crucial if already rocking stuff like Cleria.

    Zora is atk debuff plus ailments, but you have other options for that, e.g. Ionia, Velma, etc.

    Marlo is a arena/colo specialist unit, but some of my guildmates do specifically like Marlo in regular thunder squads (e.g. for Guild Raid) as a nuke unit.
     
  6. Khanwulf

    Khanwulf

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    Thanks Acyl! Am currently rocking a full Cleria Omni+1and Johan Omni. Beiorg and Iona 7*.

    5th slot is weak because I need more squad points, which will come.

    Picked up Ordine, but trying to understand her place, if any.

    --Khanwulf
     
  7. Acyl

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    Ordine is broadly speaking an alternative to Gregor, Avant. Gregor LS has crit dmg and elemental weakness dmg boost, Ordine has crit dmg, atk, BB atk, spark crit, so on. Both Gregor and Ordine carry crit hit rate/dmg in SBB buffs as well. Ordine's SBB profile is similar to Avant's except better, as Ordine includes crit rate while Avant does not.

    Avant LS is in a similar vein to Ordine and Gregor, but since Avant's own SBB does not include crit rate (it can do crit dmg, but no crit RATE), a build using Avant lead still requires a second unit in squad (Gregor, Zalvard, Ordine, Mariela, etc) to do crit rate on SBB, or it must get crit rate from friend unit, or squad must have sufficient spheres or whatever to cap crit chance without an SBB buff. It is technically possible to use Avant BB (not SBB) to do crit rate, but this is not advisable as generally for high damage builds you want to be using SBBs and not BB.

    Between Gregor and Ordine, technically Gregor lead squad might have higher damage potential, but Ordine (or Avant) lead would be more reliable and consistent. Gregor has elemental dmg weakness effects, the thing is that elemental weakness dmg boosts dmg done by, say, actual fire units to actual earth targets. Doesn't boost dual-element SBBs, or elements 'painted on' to squad attacks by units like Malef/Quaid. This means, say, a Gregor squad with dark units would maul a light target, but that same Gregor squad with dark units would do much less dmg to an earth target (since there would be few fire units in squad).

    The above discussion is mostly for frontier hunter/crit builds of course. If you have an empty squad space and there is no other crit buffer in squad, spare spaces in a regular build can certainly be used for crit buffs, but it is generally not the number one absolute priority for trial/GGC content (as many newer bosses may resist crit), and it is not advisable for regular non-guild raid (as crit can fuck up raid sphere mat drops vs multipart bosses). Crit is good to bring for regular quest and things like guild raid, however.

    I would say, though, that if for example you have a main squad of :thunder:Cleria, :dark:Johan, :thunder:Beiorg, :light:Ionia (or Claire/Eze/Hugh/Izuna) as suggested above... and you don't need anything specific from the last slot like bringing Mariela for crit null (Mariela does crit rate/dmg buffs as well, mind you, but you may also wish to have her to nullify ENEMY crit hits on YOUR squad vs certain bosses), then purely as a damage booster it is marginally better to bring Ordine in that last space over, say, Glenn, Zalvard, Avant or any number of crit dmg buffers you own.
     
  8. Khanwulf

    Khanwulf

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    Thanks again, and I hope your analysis is useful to others; there seem to be rather few such breakdowns on what Google throws up.
    Also for FH and arena I can now add Zekuu, though his LS concerns me as it seems to penalize your own squad's BC rate!
    And for other content I've drawn Holia, who looks like a potential leader replacement for Cleria, though that would necessitate more BB generation in the squad....
    Holia seems like a stand in for Elimo as well, which means UoC is down to Krantz.

    --Khanwulf
     
  9. Acyl

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    I assume Zekuu's LS BC reduction effect hinders the enemy rather than affecting your own squad, though I haven't used Zekuu lead myself. Regardless, you want an ABP/CBP boost LS for arena/colo use.

    Zekuu shouldn't be used in an FH squad. FH score depends partially on number of sparks. Zekuu does one hit, doesn't contribute much to sparking.

    Holia lead skill does not replace Cleria. Cleria dmg reduction works vs. all elements, compare this to Holia who is only an effective lead vs. fire or water bosses (Azalea is similar to Holia here).

    Basically your lead skill options for boss fights are Cleria/Mariela/Hisui unless the enemy is, indeed, specifically fire or water, in which case Holia/Azalea can work.

    Holia is heals + crit null + 80% KO resistance UBB, basically. In the suggested squad, Cleria is heals, Beiorg is 80% KO resistance UBB, and of course Cleria and Beiorg also do other necessary things on top of that. Cleria/Beiorg doesn't provide crit null, but you could... say, still bring Holia along in an empty slot, or use Mariela, or use Hisui lead, or something. More logically a squad utilising Holia would probably try to avoid Beiorg use, at least, or something.

    I like Holia a lot. She just isn't super-efficient alongside Cleria and Beiorg due to clash. Sort of a one or another situation, in optimisation terms.

    Note that Holia can do ailment negation for three turns, but cannot REMOVE ailments - this is an important distinction as three turn negate/protect is a buff that can be stripped away from bosses. Conversely Cleria removes ailments but doesn't do lasting null... removal is more important. A squad built with Holia and no Cleria would need some other unit to do ailment removal (e.g. Mariela with SP, Krantz, Hisui, whatever). Some units would have lead skill ailment null, but this is not considered reliable either in hard content as some bosses have periods of lead skill lockout.

    Technically speaking with 3x Omni mitigators (Johan, Magress, Hisui) you have bare minimum enough for content that requires 3x squads, and need not strictly use UoC on one, but it is generally useful to still have more (in a very very ideal world, one Omni mitigator for each element), especially for game content that restricts squad elements, or ideally wants certain element builds.

    One option I should have mentioned is Zelnite as UoC for his account XP lead skill - this is one of the default choices for anyone that doesn't have a levelling lead.
     
  10. Khanwulf

    Khanwulf

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    Interesting. Some seem to have had great success with Zekuu + Lasswell in FH. However: on investigation I assume this is because of Lasswell's +hitcount abilities. Now I don't have Lasswell, but Mankai Sakura Miku and Foxblade Kitsu both do +2 hitcount on SBB, and there are possible friend units. It's an item to experiment with I suppose, and since FG doesn't take energy to run....

    The thing about Holia that I've observed--as I have a friend with her--is that when she tags along the HP boost alone (combined with Cleria+Holia healing) is enough to withstand shocks that would otherwise dismantle the team (e.g. Omni Arcanum lvl 3). Part of my own weakness is of course that Beiorg is not omni yet, and neither are Ionia or the 5th slot. As incoming damage increases further, I can see how certainly any percentage reduction becomes more and more important.

    Now, taking Ezra Scarlet along is even better, thanks to the thunder units. I suppose the lesson here is <3 friends. (Edit: and, well, she's one of the best mitigator units in the game 0.o!)

    Thanks--I'll have a close look at the list again today. Kicking myself for pulling and then resummoning Zelnite a few weeks ago. Sigh.

    --Khanwulf
     
    Last edited: Jan 16, 2018
  11. Acyl

    Acyl

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    I said Zekuu shouldn't be used in FH, not cannot be used in FH. Low hit high dmg units are actually better for raw dmg output in some circumstances. But you are losing some potential points from fewer sparks - there is literally a category that awards points for number of sparks achieved. Ideal situation is 2x identical high dmg units that also have decent hit count, because the 2x nukes spark off each other.
    No, that buff does not affect SBBs.
    Lasswell LS and Miku SBB buff raise normal atk hit count, as in does not affect BB, SBB, or UBB. This is specifically to buff regular non-BB attacks, useful in particular situations e.g. bosses that penalise you for BB/SBB use or drain squad BB gauge. Squad with sufficient atk + normal hit buffs can do SBB grade dmg with just normal tap attacks. This has no bearing on FH, though, where the two accepted strategies are auto-SBB or guard->UBB.
    Correct. Percentage dmg reduction is more important than HP. Full stop. Of course, you want both dmg reduction and high HP, ideally.
    Though the Erza LS doesn't help non-thunder units much, of course.
     
  12. Khanwulf

    Khanwulf

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    Thanks, that's good clarification. I don't see a reason why Zekuu should be all that even with Lasswell over, say, lots of sparks and attack cap up.

    I'll have to raise my dupes and give it a try.

    Speaking of sparks I assume Ragra is primarily FH/sparks/BC support (and damage of course).
    Also, suggestions for Amadream? Pulled both today.

    Edit: aha, Amadream is primarily arena/colo, like Zekuu.

    --Khanwulf
     
    Last edited: Jan 18, 2018
  13. Acyl

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    Ragra is considered primarily BB gauge support and nuke dmg. Her BB gauge buffs (on BB) are... relatively uncommon on Omni units, so she's unlikely to clash with other meta units in squad. SBB buffs... frankly spark vuln isn't a big deal, self spark dmg boost and so on isn't bad (esp. since there's no spark dmg cap). The only issue with Ragra is that she doesn't, again, have many hits for number of sparks, so again she isn't tailored for FH. Rather more, say, a nuke unit for raid, Guild Raid, boss battles and so on.
    Yes, mainly designed for arena/colo, but note that Amadream is also a very good ailment inflict and stat debuff unit, while also having nuke tier dmg. Part of this is for arena, since ailments/debuffs are highly valuable in the arena/colo context, but they may matter in boss fights as well.

    Basically the trick is the 10 hit random component of Amadream's SBB. Now, random target dmg cannot crit, so this is at odds with her own self crit rate and crit dmg boosts, though the regular AOE component of her SBB can crit. However random target attacks activate chance-of-X effects differently, an AOE or ST attack rolls once for the effect per attack, a random target rolls for effect per hit. But, looking at the data, the thing is... say, Amadream's ailment inflict is a straight up chance of X, it doesn't synergise with the additional rolls from the random target... BUT Amadream's ES wants you to equip a status effect sphere ANYWAY, so I parse this as under ideal circumstances Amadream's applying a straight up 75% chance for ailment, for example, then also doing 10 rolls for ailment on top of that, so presumably it's pretty damn likely you'll stick ailments on something. For example.

    Note I haven't read any analysis or talked to anyone about Amadream myself, that's just me taking a stab at it looking at her listed data. There may be some nuance I've missed, I ain't perfect.
     
  14. Khanwulf

    Khanwulf

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    Very interesting, I was unaware of the intricacies of how the different types of attacks trigger linked effects. Hmm. Well the only way to see what a new unit like her will do is to build her up and try! That will take some time as her 52->60 unit cost rams hard against my current cap, and Beiorg needs OE cap usage first (this weekend).

    Ideally I'd like to be able to run both Amadream and Ragra, shoving aside Ionia.

    In the meantime, she can sit in the Arena team and be moderately useful.

    --Khanwulf
     
  15. Acyl

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    Neither Amadream nor Ragra do base spark dmg buff, which Ionia can do with SP. The base spark dmg buff is more important than any of the additional spark effects Ragra carries. Spark dmg buff would therefore need to come from someone else - but Cleria, Johan, Beiorg don't do spark dmg buff either, assuming you're sticking with the basic build I recommended. You'd need a hypothetical Lancelot or Adel in the mitigator slot rather than Johan. Adel should be in the legacy UoC pool for this round, though, so perhaps you could do that. Or you could use a friend slot for spark dmg buff, of course, but friend slot is sometimes locked or whatever.
     
  16. Khanwulf

    Khanwulf

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    Ok, so if spark damage is the main team benefit for Ionia (and I can see others, including debuffs applied using the random attack method you referenced earlier), then I've just picked up :thunder:Razak--who does 150% with SP over Ionia's 130%. Would you consider him to be an otherwise sufficient substitute?

    (Also, :earth:Wannahon, who is pretty clearly an earth-squad buffer, raid char, crit and and ailment inducer.)

    --Khanwulf
     
  17. Khanwulf

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    Hello @Acyl - if you don't mind, I'd like to take another look at my set up, and do it here rather than making a new thread. My main questions are:
    1. Strongest possible squad, for use in FH Rift and other hard content?
    2. Water VA squad?
    3. UoC recommendations?


    Current omni-capable roster (bolded presently omni):
    :dark: Mifune, Nyami x4, Johan, Ragina x2, Zenia, Zekuu x2, Magress, Gregor, Yuura, Haido, Velma, Kafka, Kikuri, Zalvard, Mizo Dorte, Luina
    :earth: Lanza, Hisui, Mariletta, Barvars, Phileine, Wannahon, Mordlim, Eriana, Nagid, Gyras, Freed, Serge, Libera, Dion, Rozalia, Gandrei, Daros
    :fire: Avant, Glenn, Barion, Adel, Rengaku x2, Kulyuk, Malef, Divine Phoenix x2, Claire, Rugahr, Agnia, Ludero, Barbara, Ciara
    :light: Mankai Sakura Miku, Ionia x2, Carrol, Lara, Lauda, Lukroar x2, Amadream, Regil, Alan, Mora, Linasera, Izuna x2
    :thunder: Daltisk, Marlo, Cleria x2, Beiorg, Ragra, Becstain, Ordine, Razak, Rayla, Fizz, Licht, Zora
    :water: Sae, Elimo, Asto, Isniel, Kitsu x2, Holia x2, Mariela, Stein, Melord, Hugh x2, Arsom, Amu Yunos, Azalea, Belfura, Zeleste, Vaisal, Azami, Zalts, Lumis

    Thanks to your assistance I have a very capable team in the form of Cleria, Beiorg, Johan, Ionia and (Amadream, or whatever). This auto facerolls most content but can falter on some of the harder trials. And yes, my spheres are not that strong--an important area to bring up.
    I... think... that :light:Lukroar, :thunder:Daltisk, :earth:Nagid, :water:Sae, and ?? :)dark:Nyami, or maybe :fire:Kulyuk... or Avant) would work pretty well. But maybe something better strikes your eye?

    For water VA my present team is :water:Sae, Asto, Isniel, Kitsu and Mariela. Do you think I should raise the second Kitsu instead of one of these? Am I missing or miss-valuing one of them?

    Which non-LE units that you find essential would really contribute to my roster? I've fingered Savia or Shion so far, but others??

    Thanks again,
    --Khanwulf
     
    Last edited: Apr 4, 2018

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